Guerra en Libia

[poliorcetes]

Están diciendo que el Gada no ha tenido mejor idea que imitar a Saddam usando la fuerza de forma indiscriminada... sin acordarse de que el 91 le funcionó al tikrití­ al apoyarse en sus paisanos sunnies, acojonaos de un triunfo Shi'í­. Parece que parte de la élite y lo que es peor, del ejército, se quiere deshacer de su clan familiar para salvar al régimen. Lo que queda por ver es cuánto del régimen o de la actual élite es de su jamula (o como lo digan en su dialecto) y cuánto no.

De lo que llevo leido, destaco esto:

http://www.juancole.com/2011/02/the-gat ... poli.html#

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/ ... 38622.html

El video, acaba un poco mal, eso sí­.

Aljazeera sacan una versión más moderada:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/afric ... 77576.html

[Lepanto]

Pues dos coroneles libios, han desertado con sus Mirage F1 y aterrizado en Malta, se negaron a cumpliar las ordenes recibidas de atacar a la población civil.

[poliorcetes]

Parece ser que otros si se han puesto a la tarea de bombardear a la población civil, pero no hay datos contrastados. En cualquier caso, Gadaffi está mucho más loco que cualquier otro lí­der árabe contemporáneo, así­ que no podemos extrañarnos de alguna salvajada memorable.

[Orel]

¿Se han puesto a bombardear a la población? No estaba enterado. Gracias. Qué desastre.

Fotos de la deserción de Mirage F1 libios a Malta (desertor libio, desertores):





http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images ... 123028.jpg

http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images ... 123045.jpg

http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images ... 123100.jpg

http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images ... 123064.jpg

[poliorcetes]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/afric ... 65446.html

Gaddafi's son warns of civil war
Appearing on Libyan state television, Seif al-Islam Gaddafi says his father is in the country and has support of army.
Last Modified: 21 Feb 2011 09:01 GMT
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Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, a son of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, has promised a programme of reforms but also warned of "civil war" after bloody protests against his father's 42-year rule reached the capital, Tripoli.

Speaking on state television in the early hours of Monday morning, Saif Gaddafi blamed thugs, inmates, foreigners and Islamists for the unrest that has spread across the country since February 14.

He promised a conference on constitutional reforms within two days and said Libyans should "forget oil and petrol" and prepare themselves for occupation by "the West" if they failed to agree.

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The younger Gaddafi contrasted the situation in Libya with revolts earlier this year in Egypt and Tunisia, where longtime rulers were forced step down or flee in the face of mass popular discontent.

Protesters in Libya have similarly called for Muammar Gaddafi's ousting, but his son drew contrasts between neighbouring countries and Libya, which he said was more tribal and divided.

"Libya is different, if there is disturbance it will split into several states," he said.

"You can say we want democracy and rights, we can talk about it, we should have talked about it before. It's this or war. Instead of crying over 200 deaths, we wil cry over hundreds of thousands of deaths.

"Brothers, there are $200bn worth of projects at stake now. We will agree to all these issues immediately. We will then be able to keep our country, unlike our neighbours.

"Or else, be ready to start a civil war and chaos and forget oil and petrol."

Gaddafi said his father remains in the country and is backed by the army, despite reports from several cities that soldiers have refused to take action against protesters and in several cases have joined their ranks or withdrawn.

"We will fight to the last minute, until the last bullet," Gaddafi said.

Tripoli violence

Following Saif Gaddafi's speech, witnesses in Tripoli reported an escalation of violence, as supporters of his father flooded into the city's central square and confronted anti-government protesters.


Armed men in uniform fired into the crowds, witnesses said, and continuous gunfire could be heard in the background of recorded phone calls from the capital released to journalists by Libyans living abroad.

Saif Gaddafi admitted that some military bases, tanks and weapons had been seized and acknowledged that the army, under stress, opened fire on crowds because it was not used to controlling demonstrations.

Witnesses in Libya have reported that some cities, especially in the east, which is perceived as less loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, have fallen completely into the hands of civilians and protesters.

Though human rights groups have said that hundreds of protesters have died, a toll they still described as "conservative," Saif Gaddafi said that numbers had been exaggerated.

He said there were 14 dead in Tripoli and 84 in Benghazi, Libya's second-largest city and the site of some of the bloodiest security crackdowns.

In a new estimate released on Sunday, Human Rights Watch said at least 233 people have died so far.

Doctors and eyewitnesses throughout Libya have offered widely varying death toll but have reported many hundreds of injured, even in Benghazi alone.

'Desperate speech'

Marwan Bishara, Al Jazeera's senior political analyst, said Saif Gaddafi's speech appeared "desperate".

"It sounded like a desperate speech by a desperate son of a dictator who's trying to use blackmail on the Libyan people by threatening that he could turn the country into a bloodbath," Bishara said.

"That is very dangerous coming from someone who doesn't even hold an official role in Libya - so in so many ways, this could be the beginning of a nightmare scenario for Libya if a despotic leader puts his son on air in order to warn his people of a bloodbath if they don't listen to the orders or the dictates of a dictators."

Saif Gaddafi offered to put forward reforms within two days, saying Libya faced a "historic moment" and could choose between reform or something "worse than Yugoslavia".

He said the regime was willing to remove some restrictions and begin discussions for a constitution - something he said "the leader Gaddafi" desired.

He also offered to change a number of laws, including those covering the media and the penal code.

"It's also fascinating how he threatened the West with chaos in Libya and then threatened Libyans with Western intervention, because, as he put it, that would turn Libya into a decentralised country allowing various Islamist groups to take over, which the West would not allow," Bishara said.

Saif Gaddafi said the General People's Congress, Libya's equivalent of a parliament, would convene on Monday to discuss a "clear" reform agenda, while the government would also raise wages.

Speaking to Al Jazeera, Najla Abdurahman, a Libyan dissident, said Gaddafi's speech was an attempt to "play up" Libyans' fears.

"I don't think anyone in Libya who isn't close to the Gaddafi regime would buy anything he said," she said.

"And even if there is any truth to what he said, I don't think it's any better than what the people of Libya have already been living with for the past 40 years."

"He promised that the country would spiral into civil war for the next 30 to 40 years, that the country's infrastructure would be ruined, hospitals and schools would no longer be functioning - but schools are already terrible, hospitals are already in bad condition."

Soldiers defect

On Sunday, before Saif Gaddafi's speech, thousands of protesters rallied in Tripoli and clashed with Gaddafi supporters.
Witnesses said earlier that protesters had begun to mass in many smaller cities in Libya's west and along its Nafusa mountain chain and had plans to march on the capital.

"We are sending our message to Gaddafi via Al Jazeera, telling him we are determined to topple him from power because of the reign of terror we have experienced for more than 40 years," said Nassen Sefao, speaking from Yafran, around 160 km southwest of Tripoli. "We will never concede to humiliation again."

Gunfire rang out in the night and police used tear gas to disperse demonstrators in the capital, some of whom threw stones at Gaddafi posters.

"We are in Tripoli, there are chants [directed at Gaddafi]: 'Where are you? Where are you? Come out if you're a man," a protester told Al Jazeera on the phone.

Another resident told the Reuters news agency that the lights had gone out inside their house.

"There are gunshots in the street," the resident said by phone. "That's what I hear, gunshots and people. I can't go outside."

An expatriate worker living in the Libyan capital told Reuters: "Some anti-government demonstrators are gathering in the residential complexes. The police are dispersing them. I can also see burning cars."

There were also reports of protesters heading to Gaddafi's compound in the city of Al-Zawia near Tripoli, with the intention of burning the building down.

Most of the protests and violence have occurred in Benghazi, the cradle of the uprising and a region where Gaddafi's grip has always been weaker than elsewhere in the oil-rich desert nation.

Habib al-Obaidi, a surgeon at the Al-Jalaa hospital there, said the bodies of 50 people, mostly shot dead, were brought in on Sunday afternoon. Two hundred wounded had arrived, he said.

"One of the victims was obliterated after being hit by an RPG (rocket propelled grenade) to the abdomen," he said.

Members of an army unit known as the "Thunderbolt" squad had brought wounded comrades to the hospital, he said.

The soldiers said they had defected to the cause of the protesters and had fought and defeated Gaddafi's elite guards.

"They are now saying that they have overpowered the Praetorian Guard and that they have joined the people's revolt," another man at the hospital, lawyer Mohamed al-Mana, told the Reuters news agency by telephone.

'Tribal revolt'

In another sign of popular resentment toward Gaddafi, the head of the Al-Zuwayya tribe in eastern Libya threatened to cut off oil exports unless authorities stop what he called the "oppression of protesters".

The Warfala tribe, one of Libya's biggest, has also reportedly joined the anti-Gaddafi protests.

Libya has become a key oil provider to Europe in recent years, and EU countries buy approximately 75 per cent of the country's oil.

Shaikh Faraj al Zuway, the head of the Zuwayya tribe, told Al Jazeera that his people would stop oil exports within 24 hours if the government-sponsored violence did not stop.

The tribe's population is primarily centered south of Benghazi.

Akram Al-Warfalli, a leading figure in the Warfala tribe south of Tripoli, told Al Jazeera that Gaddafi was "no longer a brother" and must leave the country.

Protests have also reportedly broken out in other cities, including Bayda, Derna, Tobruk and Misrata. Anti-Gaddafi graffiti adorns the walls of several cities.

Army 'defects'

Anti-government protesters in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi have reportedly seized army vehicles and weapons amid worsening turmoil in the African nation.

Mohamed, a doctor from Al Jalaa hospital in Benghazi, told Al Jazeera that members of the military had sided with the protesters.

"We are still receiving serious injuries, I can confirm 13 deaths in our hospital. However, the good news is that people are cheering and celebrating outside after receiving news that the army is siding with the people," he said.

"But there is still a brigade that is against the demonstrators. For the past three days demonstrators have been shot at by this brigade, called Al-Sibyl brigade."

Sadiq al Ghiryani, a Libyan religious leader, told Al Jazeera a "massacre" was under way in the city and troops firing shots were mostly mercenaries. Kamal Hudethifi, a judge, described the killings as "ethnic cleansing".

Moftah, a Benghazi resident , who requested Al Jazeera use only his first name, said the city had become a "war zone" in recent days. Residents have barricaded the streets with overturned trash cans and debris, and security forces have largely confined themselves to two compounds, though snipers continue to target protesters, he said.

The forces who remain are "thugs" loyal to Gaddafi, Moftah said, and they are firing high-calibre ammunition at protesters.

The eyewitness report came a day after security forces opened fire at a funeral in the eastern coastal city on Saturday, killing at least 15 people and injuring scores more.

A group of six alleged mercenaries - reportedly brought in from Tunisia and other African nations to bolster pro-Gaddafi forces - were captured and arrested by demonstrators in the city of Shahat.

Appeal for calm

Against this backdrop of violence, opposition groups said some 50 Libyan Muslim leaders have urged security forces to stop killing civilians.

"This is an urgent appeal from religious scholars, intellectuals, and clan elders from Tripoli, Bani Walid, Zintan, Jadu, Msalata, Misrata, Zawiah, and other towns and villages of the western area," the appeal, signed by the group of leaders, stated.

"We appeal to every Muslim, within the regime or assisting it in any way, to recognise that the killing of innocent human beings is forbidden by our Creator and by His beloved prophet of compassion, peace be upon him ... Do not kill your brothers and sisters. Stop the massacre now!"

Around the world, people have been gathering in solidarity with the protesters at Libyan consulates and at the White House in Washington, the US capital.

Libya's government has responded to the international criticism by threatening retaliation against the European Union. It said on Sunday that it would stop co-operating with efforts to try and stop illegal migrants heading to Europe.

[armada62]

Pues si es cierto lo que me comentan, están en guerra civil.
Los sublevados están armados y tienen determinación. La matanza, de ser asi, va a ser de órdago, pues éste si que está ido de la perola, y por lo que veo, sus hijos también.
A ver...

[armada62]

Italia ya tiene sus bases aéreas en alerta, y parece que el Chad está enviando soldados para ayudar a controlar la revuelta.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =MID&s=TOP

[poliorcetes]

El Gada nunca ha sido la persona más estable de este planeta, y en ocasiones anteriores reaccionó ante una sublevación a la árabe: hierro hasta que nadie respira.

Como dices, es posible que sea de órdago y seguro que desde fuera nadie va a hacer nada.

[CENTURION]

Está usando mercenarios ¿alguien sabe su nacionalidad? éste paí­s va a la contra de los otros, aquí­ la gente no se muere de hambre, es el paí­s con la renta percápita más alta de la zona, lo que ocurre es que los ata muy en corto, lo dicho Libertad....y son 6 mill de habitantes, puede ser una tragedia....
He hablado con mi gente, parece que hay Sirios, Yemení­es, Palestinos y Chechenos, ¿alguien sabe algo más? Gadafi ha tirado mucho de Rusia...

[CENTURION]

Ultimas novedades, no se sabe a ciencia cierta cuantas familias españolas hay, la Embajada como en Tunez, se lava las manos,y dice a la gente que tiene que buscarse la vida, no hay nada y al telf, responde un sudamericano que debe de ser el mayordomo del Canciller, no hay nadie más, el Canciller les ha dicho que no tiene que darles nada ( ni agua ,viveres y eso ,que él no está para eso) la OID ( oficina de Información diplomática ) nada de nada, dicen que está reunido el gabinete de crisis.

A parte de las familias mixtas, unos 100 trabajadores de Repsol, Sacir -Vallehermoso y la Tanner de Saavedra, los de Saavedra vienen en el avión portugués ( manda cojones, Portugal si ha mandado aviones ) están esperando pasar la aduana y salir sobre las 2200 p.m., los demás en un avión privado que ha mandado Repsol, pero no le han dado permiso de aterrizaje, hay tres personas en Tripolí­ de las que no se sabe nada, se dan por pérdidas, lo de éstos hijos de la gran puta ya no tiene nombre .....¡ Viva España!

[poliorcetes]

No es la única noticia respecto a que el embajador es un indeseable. Yo he leido (no preguntéis, no lo guardé) que hay quejas de empresarios y familiares porque ha desatendido a sus deberes y se ha lavado las manos.

Y saldrá de rositas, claro. Buenos son los diplomáticos, además de endógamos

[Starfish Prime]

Yo pienso que los embajadores y demás gente en estos paí­ses corruptos al final están mas para servir a algunos que a los ciudadanos.

Yo pensaba que Gadafi tirarí­a de mercenarios Africanos, Ugandeses y gente curtida en guerras ecuatoriales.

[CENTURION]

Gadafi es un tipo muy extraño, los perfiles que he leido le definen como un tipo muy inestable con serios problemas mentales y eso es lo que están pagando los libios, voy a dar un toque a ver como sigue la cosa,pero anoche habí­a dimisiones en el gobierno y serias disensiones en el ejercito que ya comienza a negarse a disparar contra la gente, eso sí­ los muertos ya pasaban del millar...

[poliorcetes]

Hoy han dicho en al-Jazeera que el este (Bengasi) está fuera del control del gobierno y no se sabe si se ha generado un emirato independiente o si hay un conjunto de fuerzas dispersas tratando de organizarse.

Lo jodí­o es que con el despropósito que es la republiquí­sima árabe socialista, si cae Gadafi y su estructura de poder no hay nada detrás, dicen que es posible que el Estado colapse.

Si esto no ha pasado en Siria es porque la mayorí­a Sunni recuerda lo de Hama. Los progres en España ni les suena (me refiero a los de la keffiyeh para turista que luchan "denodadamente"), pero la barrabasada fue bestia hasta para los estándares de la zona y el recuerdo de hasta donde puede llegar el Baaz supongo que será una vacuna eficaz para quitar ideas de la cabeza a la gente.

[CENTURION]

Y que los dos barcos Iraní­es van a Siria, aunque la sospecha es que el trasporte de 33.000 tn, puede llevar armas para Hezbolá y si es así­, los submarinos Israelí­es tienen orden de hundirlos y si se están aguantando es por todo lo que está sucediendo, puede ser un espaldarazo iraní­ a Siria, principal aliado en la zona...Pero poliorcetes los del Baaz tienen los dí­as contados, sobre todo por que el " niño" no es el asesino sin escrupulos que era su Padre....